Guest David Lobenstine returns to talk about using a sliding scale fee schedule in his massage practice.
David is a massage therapist in Manhattan and an educator everywhere. His new online course Pour Don’t Push just launched, check it out here. (affiliate link)
You can hear David’s first appearance on our podcast in episode 164, How Can I Be More Present in a Massage?
Sponsor message This episode is sponsored by Body Brain Breath continuing education. And we are thrilled to celebrate David M. Lobenstine’s new online course Pour Don’t Push. Does this sound familiar? Your body feels like it’s betraying you. You feel distracted while you work. You give a good massage, but you want to take your work to the next level. Whatever you’re facing, David can help. David’s courses offer innovative ways of seeing the body and new tools for taking care of your client’s body and your own body. Pour Don’t Push will show you how to be a happier and more effective massage therapist. And you, our Massage Business Blueprint listeners, can get 30% off Pour Don’t Push through May 20th, 2019. You can check out the course and redeem your 30% off at massagebusinessblueprint.com/pour30, P-O-U-R-3-0. Check it out.
Allissa Haines Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Massage Business Blueprint podcast, where we discuss the business side of massage therapy. I am Allissa Haines, and I am delighted to bring a return guest in today, David Lobenstine. David, say hi.
David Lobenstine Hello, everybody.
AH How are you this morning?
DL I’m doing pretty great. How are you?
AH I’m good. I just opened up all the windows because it’s cool and brisk after a couple of days of rain. And I’m psyched to clean my house from top to bottom today, like, full-on dusting windowsills to get rid of all of the pollen that’s dropped already. And then I’m going to leave my house for several hours while it all settles.
AH So what’s the weather like where you are in New York?
DL Wow. The weather is perfect. It’s about 55 degrees and sunny, which is how I want it to be for the entire summer.
DL It got up to 70 yesterday, and I actually found myself starting to complain about how hot it was, which was a little bit embarrassing when my wife called me on it. So this 55 and sunny is like — it’s my jam right here.
AH Yeah, that is terrible to be complaining about that so early.
DL Yes, it is. Yes it is. (Laughter)
AH I am also disappointed in you. (Laughter)
DL I have a low quotient for sweating.
AH And I just want to point out that I was just like I’m going to clean my house because I’m trying to motivate myself, so if I announce it to the world and the whole podcasting audience, then people will be like, no, really, did you clean your house? And it’s accountability for me. So I wasn’t trying to brag about how productive I think I am.
DL It was very, very impressive. And it made me realize that I have no plans of cleaning my house today.
AH And that’s fine. That’s totally fine.
AH So we’ve had you on an episode previously, which was super cool, and we talked about — I don’t remember the exact title of the episode. I probably should have done my homework on that. But it was really great advice about taking a moment —
AH The advice was taking a moment and taking a breath before every massage. And that has — it has impacted my work dramatically.
AH It’s been really, really helpful for me. And but — so we kind of covered the background of you previously. But you have been a massage therapist since 2004; is that right?.
DL That’s right. I graduated from the Swedish Institute in August of 2004, a week before I got married.
DL And yeah. I’ve been — I’ve been rubbing ever since.
AH Tell us a little bit about your private practice in Manhattan.
DL I am very, very lucky and I feel very fortunate to have — have left behind the spa gigs and the — and the, you know, chiropractor gigs. And now I just work in my own private practice called Full Breath Massage in the flower district in Manhattan. And it’s amazing and I see a whole, you know, wacky array of clients. My specialty, I guess, is pre and postnatal massage, but then I see the gamut of young and old and athletes and very unathletes and, you know, all the rest. So it’s pretty marvelous.
AH I’m always really curious for people who juggle things. And we’re going to talk in a little bit about how you’re also an educator. But how does the balance of your work week look because you’ve got a private practice —
AH — you are teaching and also creating courses for online, and you’ve got, you know, a wife who works and a couple of kids.
AH So how does that — I’m so — as I dive more into parenting, I’m so curious now how everyone else juggles it. So how does that work for you?
DL Yeah. You know, it works constantly and incessantly and complicatedly and all those other adverbs. It’s — you know, it’s a perpetual triage situation. But I think actually, on the whole, my wife and I have both been self-employed for, I think, almost ten years now. Because she’s a novelist, so her job is even less stable than our work. And I mean, in the big picture, we’re incredibly fortunate because we get to spend a lot of time with our kids and thankfully we enjoy our kids, which makes a big difference. So the — basically the nuts and bolts of it is that I’m pretty ruthless about dividing my time. So I only see clients two and a half days out of the week. And then the other thing that you didn’t mention is that I’m also a manuscript editor, so I edit history and cultural studies books, which was my first career in publishing about 20 years ago. So I’ve kept a little bit of that on the side. So I edit a couple days a week, I see massage clients a couple days a week, and then I do my teaching and teaching preparation a couple days a week. So, you know, it’s busy, but it means that I get to take my kids to school every day, and I get to pick up my kids from school two or three days a week and we — I don’t know, we kind of get to hang out a lot. So it’s pretty delightful. Our accountant doesn’t think it’s very delightful because our savings is, you know, sort of a joke. But we’re enjoying — we’re enjoying life moment by moment.
AH How many clients are you seeing in that two and a half days a week?
DL It’s usually anywhere from, like, you know, two hours of massage on a given day to nine hours of massage on a given day. So it fluctuates a lot, which I’ve just kind of accepted as part of the nature of private practice. But what it means — I think because I’ve spent so much time — as we’ll talk about in a little bit — focusing on body mechanics and focusing on my breath as I work, it means that I actually prefer to see clients fewer days a week but then have really long days where I, you know, am seeing seven or eight clients in a day. Because I find that I kind of get into this, you know, this flow state where I’m just really aware of my body and really aware of my breath and actually feel pretty good even after — even after a long day.
AH That’s impressive. So you have days with up to nine hours of massage?
DL Yep. Yep.
AH Okay. Are your days — are your massage days back to back or are they spread out —
DL Yeah, Thursdays, Fridays, and every other Saturday is the way it plays out. Yeah, yeah.
AH Huh. That excites me to hear that you can do that pace and you prefer that pace because I found as I’m getting older, the longer days are a little rougher for me.
DL Um-hum. Um-hum.
AH And if I have two long days in a row, I struggle a little bit. I’ve always felt like as long as my recovery — as long as I wake up the next day feeling good about doing whatever it is I need to do that day then I’m okay. And I’ve found myself waking up being a little more tired than I wish I was —
DL Um-hum, yeah.
AH — and a little bit less excited about having another physical day. And I break up my week so that I don’t — I don’t typically have two long days in a row.
DL Yeah, yeah.
AH But it really — as I age and am increasing my client load and plan to do that for the next 10 to 15 years, it’s — I’ve really found myself looking towards career therapists and it’s particularly people who have long days and managing how they do it.
AH And that actually segues us beautifully into — you know, it’s a subtopic and at the same time it’s our halftime spot everyone. A thing that I’m really excited to talk about and tell you about is David’s new online course — and I’m gong to say it, like, 50 times, so you’ll know that you can find it at bodybrainbreath.com. And it’s called Pour Don’t Push, which is a class I got to peek in on when he was teaching for the Rhode Island AMTA chapter a couple years ago and we were at that conference. I got to peek in and look at what was going on, and it looks amazing.
And before I let David kind of go off freestyle telling us about the course, I’m going to say that I have started to watch it. I’m only a few minutes into, like, the very first video where David said right out that if you’re starting to feel it, if you’re starting to ache, and more importantly for me, I really felt like I was being personally spoken to and borderline attacked —
AH — where you were like if your mind is wandering and you’re having trouble staying focused and you find yourself balancing your checkbook and not thinking about the client on the table in front of you, then maybe you need something to refresh these skills. And I’m really excited about — that this is not a particular modality, but a foundation — foundational principles that will deepen and expand and revive my work because now I’m 14 years in, I know I got about 15 years left of practice — hopefully full-time practice — and I definitely need a boost. So David tell us a little more about Pour Don’t Push and how it came to be.
DL Yes, indeed. So the course had its origins about 10 years ago, and I’ve been teaching it — I’ve been teaching it in a live, in-person version since 2012 in various places, both in New York City, where I am, and around the country. And basically it had its origins actually in that check balance thing. I found myself in the middle of a session, you know, working on some dude’s upper traps for the thousandth time, and my mind was literally going over how much money I had in my checking account. And I realized, oh, no, if I actually want to do this for a living, balancing my checkbook while I’m trying to help somebody feel better is not a good scenario.
So I, you know, I basically took stock of what, you know, what was happening and what was behind that. And I was very fortunate at the time to be taking a Thai Chi class with the amazing Bob Altheim at the Swedish Institute. And Thai Chai, you know, is all about doing everything from your whole body, right? So the idea is that every movement that you do originates in your feet and is only manifested in your hands, which is amazingly applicable to us massage therapists. So I was going Thai Chi, I started experimenting with mindfulness meditation, and I realized over time that essentially, I think, the huge problem that we get into as massage therapists is that we work harder than we need to. We expend more muscle effort than we need do. And so it means there is a lot of tension built up in our bodies physically and it also means that we start to check out mentally. We just get stuck in a rut, and I call that the rut of pushing, right, where we’re trying to push, we’re trying to muscle, we’re trying to force our clients to feel better. And of course, this is only good intentions, but it ends up having this spiraling effect where our physical aches and pains then bleed over into our mental distractions and loss of focus, and the result, I think, is that oftentimes we’re not doing work that’s as effective as it could be, and we as massage therapists aren’t as happy as we could be in our own bodies and in our own brains.
AH So tell me — the first thing I thought when you told me you were developing this course and then when I got the launch email the other day is yeah, yeah, yeah this is great, but how am I going to learn body mechanics from an online class?
DL And that is an excellent question, and it’s basically what I’ve spent the last year and a half trying to figure out as I have created this course. Because, you know, for years I resisted created online versions of this course because I am such a believer in hands-on education and being able — as a teacher, one of my greatest satisfactions is being able to go from table to table and give people specific suggestions, right, that can really help them do exactly what they’re doing and do their work more effectively.
So the key, I think, is that I have tried to translate all of the time I have spent in the classroom into this course so that even though you’re watching me through a screen, you’re still getting what is, essentially, personalized attention. What I’ve done that I’m really proud of is that I’ve filmed the course with several different therapists, so as you watch the course, you see me demonstrate a series of techniques or principles — body mechanics and otherwise — and then as you practice with your partner on the other side of the screen, what you’re watching is another therapist practicing on a body, doing those techniques that I just did, and I am making suggestions for improving that person’s body mechanics, that person’s techniques, on that other side of the screen. So even though I’m not with you, I am doing the work with an actual therapist. And what the means is that I can make really specific suggestions based on the hundreds of massage therapists that I’ve work on — I’m sorry, that I’ve worked with in classes over the years. So I have a pretty good idea, even though I’m not actually seeing you and what you’re doing when you practice, I have a pretty good idea of the common pitfalls, the common places where we get stuck, and I can address those directly. So the course is full of really, really specific concrete suggestions that you can implement even though I’m not in the same room with you.
AH And exciting news, David is giving our listeners 30% off the course through May 20th, 2019. And you can check that out at massagebusinessblueprint.com/pour30, P-O-U-R-3-0 to get 30% off David’s new course. So check it out.
I am a huge fan of David’s work and I think you will be too. But the real reason we brought David in today is to talk kind of about a hard-core business thing. And specifically about pricing, which is always — we get more questions about pricing than, I think, anything else, whether it be how do I increase my prices, how do I figure out what my prices should be, should I offer packages, all of these things about money are always the most commonly asked question. And David’s with us because he offers and has always offered a sliding scale for his massage practice, for his clients to pay. And I have known this for a while and I’ve been really interested in it.
And David, take us through how that came about, how you arrange it, and how it works for you.
DL All right. So I — like I mentioned, I’ve always worked in Manhattan, I have been exposed to what I think is often the absurdity of spa massages and how ridiculously high they are priced. So when I started private practice, I knew to make massage (indiscernible) for more than just, you know, the bachelor party or bachelorette party set, right, that I was seeing at the spas, right? I was basically raised by old hippies who have never cared much about money, and so I think I have some of that hippie mentality in me. But again, I also see myself as a business person. Maybe not a very successful one, but in any event, I like to be able to put clothes on my kids’ backs.
So I decided to experiment. And my kind of guiding principle, I believe that if a client is getting good work from me, that they are going to pay what they are able to pay. And so for some folks, that’s the very bottom of the sliding scale, for some folks that’s the top of the sliding scale, and then for others that’s in the middle. But I have to be comfortable with the idea that it all kind of balances out in the end.
AH Like, how — let’s say I’m a first-time client —
DL Yeah, right.
AH — like, I call you, I book an appointment, I come in, I get a massage, I reschedule for another one, and then I say, how — what — how much do I pay you? What do I owe you?
DL So I think first, the key is to set up the concept of the sliding scale right from the beginning. So before I see a client — as soon — obviously, my prices are listed on my website, but also when a client books, I have a frequently asked questions template that I insert into the confirmation email so they see the sliding scale, right, so they kind of know about it in advance, right? So the nuts and bolts of it — so let’s take a 60-minute massage, right? So my hour-long massage, I say my sliding scale is $120 to $145. And I ask each client to pay where they are comfortable. And that’s it. That’s the only thing I say in the email. Oh, and I also say no tipping is necessary or expected because that also kind of clarifies things if they’re not thinking about having to then add a tip onto the end, right? So then — so that’s all I say. And then at the end of a session when someone is getting ready to pay, if they are — like you said — confused about what to do, then I’m just very upfront with them and I say, you know, I use a sliding scale because I really believe in it, and you should pay wherever within that scale works for you. And that’s it.
AH All right. And have you had anybody struggle past that or do people just pick a number and go with it?
DL Some people are definitely made uncomfortable by it, right? It’s a very interesting, kind of, reveal, right, about a person’s psyche because I think some people get kind of full of self-doubt and they wonder, like, oh, well, I can really only afford to pay at the bottom end, but he’s going to think that I’m cheap if I do that so then what do I do and then aargh. Right? And you can kind of see their eyeballs fluttering around as they try to figure it out.
But I have to say that that’s actually the exception. And I think for the most part, people might be a little bit confused by it, right, because it’s not something that we encounter very often in our lives, but then I think for the most part people are actually quite appreciative of it. It can, you know, make a difference in people’s lives, right? My hope is that my massage is making a difference in their lives. The hope, also, is that that financial flexibility, you know, is also making a difference in their lives.
And I think ultimately the longer I do it — I didn’t kind of realize this when I first started, but the longer I do it, the more I realize that actually one of the reasons why I think the sliding scale is so valuable is because it is empowering the client, right? And the more I massage, the longer I massage, the more I realize that in all aspects of a massage, what I want to do is I want to empower the client. So I want to make the client feel happier in their own bodies, right? I want to make the client feel like they’re able to go into the rest of the day and do the things they want to do, right? I want to give them that power. And then from a medical perspective, I feel like it’s so important that we make clients feel like their bodies are good, right? We give them that power of feeling like, yes, even though they have aches and pains, even though they have just recovered from surgery, even though they just had a baby and are feeling wrecked, right, their bodies are still fundamentally working, right? And I think just giving them our touch and giving them our presence, it makes them feel like their bodies are okay, right?
So I think that’s a really kind of important kind of empowerment that we can give them. And then here, too, with the sliding scale, I think it’s a really interesting example of financial empowerment, right, where for some clients, right, they really are just scraping by. I see a lot of actors and dancers who are not working regularly, and so they know they need massage, but it is — it’s a struggle. And so for them, there’s a lot of gratitude, right, that they can just pay at the bottom of the scale and they know that I am taking their care just as seriously, right, as I take people who are paying on the upper end of the scale. But it means that they can still feel like they’re still getting the care that they need.
And then for other clients who are fortunate enough to have more money and more disposable income, they can feel really good about paying me at the high end of the scale because they know that they are supporting me financially, right. And so I think that that’s empowering, you know, for the full gamut of clients, right, whether you’re paying at the bottom of the scale or at the top or somewhere in the middle.
AH Do people who pay — like, let’s say I come to you for the hour and you’ve provided this range of 120 to 145 —
AH — do you find that people who pick a number the first time — let’s say I pay you 130 — do you find that they — that is the amount they pay your every time, or do people vary from visit to visit?
DL Right. I find most people stick to one price, but then there are folks who vary — like those people like us who don’t have — who don’t necessarily have reliable incomes — or I should say steady incomes — and so I find that, yeah, those people do vary from session to session just based on how solvent they’re feeling at a given, you know, at a given visit.
AH So have you ever — and this comes a lot when people have variable pricing or when people accept tips and those tips can vary. There’s certainly, I found — and it’s part of why I stopped taking tips — is there was, for me, an emotional component.
AH Let’s say there’s a particularly high maintenance client and — again, there’s no such thing as a high maintenance client; that’s just how I reacted to it. But let’s just go with that for the purpose of language and this topic. That’s a whole other podcast episode.
AH But I got a particularly demanding client and I know that they pay me my rate but never, ever, ever tip me. Have — I found that tips made — one, I felt that they were a reflection on the quality of work I do, which is not true at all, but I felt that way. In my heart I felt that way, and it affect my well-being and my attitude as a therapist. And it also made me feel resentful, sometimes–
AH — and it makes me not look forward to someone because I felt like I was going to give them more work than their money was worth or whatever.
DL Yep. Yep.
AH How — did you ever experience — it seems like you’re really comfortable with this setup. So have you had moments where you felt that way, and if so, how did you work through that?
DL So I think the — one of the advantages of the sliding scale as opposed to the tip is that the tip becomes a yes or no proposition, right, where the question is always whether we want to tip you or not. In our minds it’s always, oh, well, yes, they tipped us or, no, they didn’t tip us. So each of those things have a very specific value that we attach to them. Like you said, even though that’s probably an illusion, it’s not necessarily about the quality of the care, right. We think of it that way. That if we give a great massage, then we should get a tip, right?
And so I think what’s interesting about the sliding scale is that I frame it purely as an economic decision, right? I don’t talk about it as having anything to do with the quality of my work. And so both in my mind, and I hope in the client’s mind, the amount of money that they pay me is really just a reflection of, you know, their financial situation, right? And so what that does is it means that it sort of cuts away a lot of the potential for those emotionally fraught situations.
And now, of course, this does require that you as a therapist feel really comfortable both with the sliding scale concept and also feel really comfortable in your work. And so I spend a lot of time, I try to be very mindful, I try to be very present. Obviously, I’m not always. But I really do have this belief that with every client that I see, I am going to do my best. Again, I sometimes fail, but I am going to do my best to give them a great massage regardless of how much they are going to pay me. And I think because I know that everyone is going to be paying me in this range and everyone is going to be paying me based on what they’re able to, I feel comfortable with getting that range of payments, and it doesn’t feel as emotionally charged, I think, as the tipping situation can feel.
AH So how about — let’s wrap this up with the nitty gritty of this, which is how do you decide to pay yourself in your business, and how does the sliding scale impact that? So for me, I would be afraid that I would have, let’s say, 10 clients in a week and they just all happen to be 10 ten clients who pay at the lowest possible end of the scale.
DL Um-hum. Um-hum.
AH And how do you manage your — obviously, you have a lot of other balls in the air. You edit and you teach CE, so you’ve got other income streams. How do you make the decision what you’re paying yourself and how do you handle that variability?
DL Right. Right. So what is pretty fascinating to me is that in the big picture, so say over a year, the amount of money that I earn, it kind of evens out between the bottom and the top of sliding scale. So even though there might be a week in which everyone just pays me at the lowest rate, over time — and again, I’ve been doing this for a long time now — I get somewhere around the middle of my scale as a general average. So it means that, you know, some people are paying me at the bottom, some people are paying me at the top, some people are paying me in between, and so it means that, basically, I can rely — again, not in any one week, but over the course of several months or over the course of a year — on somewhere around that middle, right? So for the hour massage, that would be whatever that is, $132.50, right? So it means that I can kind of ballpark that as being the, you know, rough average of what I’m going to make. And then I can calculate how much I’m taking or what I’m spending based on that. So even though there’s a lot of uncertainly in theory built into the sliding scale, the long-term, I think, is actually surprisingly stable. And thus means you can do pretty effective budgeting and calculating because it does kind of all even out in the wash as it were.
AH I’m so intrigued by this.
AH And I love —
DL Yeah, it’s wild, right?
AH I think my favorite part of this is that you have become comfortable with the uncomfortable, which is so important, I think, in being a good therapist and a good business owner is you have — you are cozy with that uncomfortable moment that might happen the first time someone’s figuring out what they’re going to pay you and you are comfortable with what is, for many people, an uncomfortable topic, and you’ve made it work really well, and obviously work really well for your clientele if they’re coming back and they’re coming to you in the first place.
AH Yeah, is there anything else you want to share about your sliding scale? Anything else we need to know?
DL The other point that I want to say is I’ve been very positive about all of this, and I really am a believer in it. But the other perspective is a very cynical perspective on the sliding scale, which is that you want to, you know, fleece all of your rich clients for as much money as possible so that’s why you use a sliding scale. And to be totally honest, I really — I believe that there are a lot of flaws with our capitalist system as it currently exists in this country, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking your higher income clients to pay more money. So I think there is something to that kind of cynical rationale for a sliding scale as well as a more open-hearted rationale that I proposed earlier on in the episode.
So I think that — I think what I want to end with is that regardless of your perspective, it is a really interesting way that you can give your clients more power, more say in the massage, and then also, frankly, you can give your clients the chance to express their gratitude to you, right, which for those clients who have less money means that they’re very grateful that you do have this range of pricing, and then for those higher income clients, it means that they can express their gratitude by acknowledging that, yes, they are doing okay financially and so they are happy to pay your more.
And so it ends up being this really interesting gift, I feel like, that I am giving my clients by giving them this flexibility, but then also that they are giving me, which I think makes money –which can be such a fraught topic and can be so uncomfortable — I think actually having a sliding scale makes — it means that we have to talk about money a lot more, which I think actually is useful practice for us massage therapists, and it also means that it makes money into this thing that is more like an exchange, more like a gift giving, rather than this topic that we’re scared about.
AH And I also — that made me think of something my friend Greg had told me. We had discussed early on in my career where I think I said something to the effect of like I know this client could use more massage, but they can’t afford it. And he hard-stopped me and said you don’t know what they can afford and you don’t know how they’re willing to arrange their budget to afford it or not. Unless they say to you out loud, I really want to fit this into my budget but I’m just not able to. So to me, I might be on the lower end of the earning spectrum of your clients. But if I went in and saw you and the work was really effective for me, I would pay on the higher end even though I am not one of your highest earning clients.
I think that we get caught up in our own money issues —
AH — and we make a lot of assumptions about what people can and are willing to pay for. And I know myself. I have flat pricing, but I know that I have clients who see me every two weeks who earn less money and perhaps have more financial burdens than people who see me once every six weeks and yet they have decided they just don’t drive as nice a car. They save their money by buying used stick shifts.
DL Right. Right.
AH That’s what they do. And while other people — we don’t get to decide what other people find value in and what other people are willing to work into their budget. Some people would not work into their budget getting breakfast out twice a week. I do because it’s important to me.
AH It takes stress off of me and is also a reward. And so it’s kind of silly in that way. Is $120 massage comparable to a $3 breakfast sandwich, but it is if that’s what’s important to you.
DL Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
AH And I think that’s really important to remind ourselves that we don’t get to make other people’s decisions, we simply get to offer them options, whether that be flat pricing or whether that be a sliding scale.
DL Yes, well put. Well put.
AH And we don’t get to decide if our clients are going to do their homework or not. We just got to meet them where they’re at. You know?
DL Yep, yep. Yeah, exactly. And giving them options opens up more possibilities, I think, healing and otherwise.
AH I got to say, I wasn’t really sold on this whole idea of a sliding scale.
AH But I see it now. I see where it can be really helpful and really useful, and I think it takes a special kind of therapist to embrace it and make it work. And I think we have a lot of listeners and a lot of people in our premium community out there who are exactly special enough. And we have people who’ve created community-funded scholarship massage programs and also scholarship programs that they’ve created and they donate time on their own, and I think that — I think this — sliding scale really has its place in the broad spectrum of how we offer pricing and how we gift and how we don’t gift massage.
DL Yep. Yep. Exactly.
AH Well, thank you for this, David. I really appreciate it.
DL Aw, thank you. I really appreciate you, Allissa Haines.
AH Thanks. And once again, everyone, you can learn more about David Lobenstine and about his new Pour Don’t Push online class, which by the way is NCBTMB approved for 14 CEs and has a money-back guarantee because he’s not messing around. You can learn more about that at bodybrainbreath.com.
And if you have questions, you can post them in the comments under this podcast episode on the website. You can email them to me at email@example.com and I will pass them along to David. And also, if you visit David’s website, definitely subscribe for his emails because — they’re not frequent, they’re not obsessive and intrusive — but they — you want to be in the loop on what David’s doing. It’s really good stuff.
So thank you again, David.
DL Thank you so much, Allissa.
AH And everybody have a wonderful day.